Life Of An Internet Merchant
(or how not to handle a customer you want to keep)

For the most part shooters are an honest bunch who appreciate our attempt to offer good products at fair prices and the best service we can muster. Most are willing to accept an occasional product glitch if we make a serious effort to quickly correct the problem. Unfortunately, people are people, and sometimes it is impossible to satisfy a customer no matter how hard one tries.

Internet merchants accept business from every sort of individual. It is not like retailing where you have the opportunity to "size up" customers to see if they are a "fit" for a particular product. We structured this web site so potential customers can evaluate their need for our products before they make a purchase. Those who have done business with us know we try hard and are honest to a fault. We understand on occasion people can get in "over their heads" with technology but hope they ask for assistance before becoming excessively frustrated. It is a continuing challenge to determine how technically savvy someone is so we don't talk down to them or explain things in terms they do not understand.

The products we sell are not like consumer electronic products. Production of electronic shooting products are highly specialized, and largely hand made, with a slightly higher failure rate then consumer products made that are made robotically. There may be fewer then 4,000 chronographs sold world wide each year by all 5 manufacturers!

Each individual component in any electronic system has a failure rate and the least expensive-low tech parts (i.e. jacks, wires, etc.) often cause the greatest problems. As the complexity of a system increases, so does the rate of failure because any part can render the entire system nonfunctional. We ask all our customers to understand this reality and work with us to resolve problems and understand their problem is also ours until it is resolved.

Manufacturers of electronic shooting products do everything reasonable to minimize problems and warrantee what they make against defects. We are no different and will correct any problem. However, no manufacturer can guarantee everything that ships will never develop a problem or that everything will always work on the first try without adjustment.

With this said, we would like to provide an example of what can happen when we misread someone's technical understanding and the customer has unrealistic expectations.

This fellow first bought a chronograph, with IR then before it arrived added everything else in our product line to a second order. Nearly two months went by before he reported a problem by email.

"Having serious problems ......... no reading to .223 Rem or 7MM ........reads .22 handgun. Shooting out of my garage .......... screens mounted indoors with IR (green illuminated) ....... standing 14 feet from screens ......... incandescent light overhead.
Any ideas?"

(The fellow earlier had told me he was an engineer so I felt I did not need to cover some of the more common issues like battery in correctly, power on, plugs in the correct hole, etc. He indicated the IR was working and the system read occasionally. I was concerned there was a rare environmental issue at his location and responded accordingly. I also wanted to determine what component had failed with every intention of sending a replacement part.) Everything I suggested can affect ANY brand of chronograph equipped with an artificial light source. Most of my suggestions only required a quick cursory examination.

Here are some things to check, not necessarily in the numbered order.

1) Make sure the overhead lights are not shining directly into the sensor slots and producing a glare on the optics or with the combination providing too much light. The easiest way is to place a piece of cardboard across the tops so the sensors are shaded and can only receive IR light. This would also correct a problem if the overhead lights are too bright or flickering.

2) Test your sensors. Set the Millennium up indoors as follows. Plug the sensors in and position them next to each other. Do not attach the diffuser parts. Turn the unit on. Use a small bright flashlight (like a small MagLite™) as the light source and flick a light beam across the top of the sensors. With a quick wrist and good light beam you should be able to artificially create readings of 150 to 200 fps.

3) Make sure your battery is good. We have had some people using Duracell brand batteries of a particular production lot that do not show low voltage on devices but their power output is erratic. It is not all Duracell's, just some that apparently were made incorrectly.

4) If the floor is white or light colored, place something dark on the floor under the sensors. If you are getting enough light a white floor will reflect light upwards under the bullet effectively eliminating the shadow.

Chances are good it is one of these issues causing the problem.

The next response from him was entirely unexpected. He had taken everything to the extreme... to the point of checking voltages and covering parts with plastic bags! All he had to do is verify bright light was not producing glare on the sensor lenses and turn off overhead flickering florescent lights or place something opaque on the IR tops. If he had called all this could have been avoided.

Still having problems .........Here is my setup ....... the battery voltage (check item# 3) checks 9.54v which is about as good as you get out of a 9v battery ........the flashlight test (check item# 2) yields 154 and 230 readings ....... the screens are snug on the square rod .......the square rod is clamped to my work bench ........ my garage entrance door opens to a bullet back stop 30 yard outside of the garage ....... I'm standing ~14 feet from the start screen ......... sighting through the screens .......I've had achieved limited success ....... covering the top of the screens with a dark cover (check item# 1) and draping a black garbage bag after the stop screen to stop the light from the entrance door where the bullet exits ......... I've placed a black garbage bag under the screens to thwart (check item# 4) floor reflection on your list........ I turned off the overhead incandescent lights .......... closed a nearby venation blind...... so I'm operating in a relatively dim area with just enough light to see to shoot ........... got the .223 Rem to read some of the time.......... 7MM and .30 Gibbs none of the time........ judging by the bullet holes in the garbage bag the bullet path is virtually dead center and probably 3" above the sensors ......... the garbage bag is loosely draped after the stop screen so if there was a muzzle blast problem I would expect that bag to blow off ......... instead it just hangs there and I actually use the bullet holes as a sighting aid ....... to say I'm unimpressed is an understatement. My only theory is the 3nnn digit is not appearing ........ the .30 Gibbs is showing 140 and the .223 Rem is showing 365 ........ if there was a 3 in front of those readings they could be believable........ the 4 digit readings I do have from the .223 are with my reduced loads in the 2500-2600 area ....... which somewhat further substantiates my theory ......... Anyway ........ I've run out of gas with this package and will not be in position to experiment further until January 2005 ...... Therefore I would like an RMA for everything unless you have a better idea.
Please advise.

He was understandably frustrated and showed no interest in resolving the problem. He was already indicating he wanted his money back. Based on his flashlight test the CPU and sensors were working OK but the IR was obviously not. It did not sound as if he ever tried it outside in normal light. I sent one more email to make sure he did not miss the obvious.

Is there a switch on the IR power supply and is it set to 110? The IR tops will be under powered if it is set to European 220 volts. The correct power supply should indicate it supplies 12 volts, when set to 220 it is probably only supplying 6 volts.

He responded:

Checked IR power supply ...... the switch is set to 120V .........Voltages to the IR screens are 13.51 DC and 13.62 DC with one alternately disconnected.

I then suggested he return the chronograph so I could check it out.

The only problem I have ever seen with the IR units is an issue with the female jack portion on one of the legs slipping up inside the housing when the Y cable is connected so it will not get power. Of course then the green led is not on so it is obviously not powered. I have never seen an IR top fail... but there is a first time for everything. If you feel there may be something wrong with the IR tops you can send the tops to me to check as well. From what you have shared I think there may be a poor connection at one of the CPU jacks or a sensor has failed. Whatever is the problem it will be sorted out when I can get possession of your CPU and sensors.

He became increasingly critical and suggested things that an electrical engineer could never justify adding to the product. Something was seriously wrong.... with more then the product! I had no idea why he spent 6 hours without calling or how he could waste so much time.

It is my understanding the chronograph (CED) is not your production. I have no idea what is wrong ........ power supply, wires, connectors, IR's, CPU or all of them. My Wisconsin vacation is over until next year .......... I'm back at work in Illinois ........ and the 6+ hours I spent tinkering with this "top of the line" stuff has not played well with me ........ I wish to send all the CED stuff back ........... tell CED can keep it!

As a graduate engineer I can tell you that if the CED were properly designed it would include a "Power On Self Test" that would verify all voltages, connections, IR's, and do a rolling simulated test of the CPU from Min to Max velocity ........ just like your desktop PC does a POST ........ Power On Self Test when you turn it on. This would eliminate you and I from having to engage in the game of .........  "is the customer is a dummy or the product is defective". If CED wants to replace it with different totally new and fully tested unit that will actually work when I get it ........ that will work for me ........... or else I just take a credit for all of it including shipping ....... I have no interest in starting out with a repaired unit from the git-go. I have already invested more time and research in this unit than it is worth.
Please advise.

Still thinking he might calm down I sent the following which was entirely true. I did not yet know where the problem was but suspected an intermittent power connection at the CPU or IR. I was puzzled because he should have seen if the green power light was not showing on one of the IR tops.

I thought you might be interested that Charles Hardy, owner of CED has requested I send what ever bad part I find in your system and another customer's CPU with a bad jack (that I replaced) directly to their factory for inspection before the next production run. As I indicated in my email I have few problems with this product and CED has always been responsive when a production problem occurs. They have always replaced defective product. Hardy also indicated they have not changed jack vendors so if your CPU also has a bad jack it is a new problem with parts from an existing vendor....hence his interest.

I am waiting for your returned items to either replace what is wrong or issue a refund.

Then he responds that the entire system is a lemon and he want everything replaced. When carefully reading this response I became aware he either does not understand what makes the system work or what the IR Lighting Option does. Otherwise he would not have made the comment about clouds and sun angles. Is he really an engineer...or at least one who understands electronic products? He checked the CPU and sensors himself and what he had emailed indicated that was working fine. He was now convinced the fourth digit was not displaying. He was convinced the entire system was bad and wanted everything replaced.

CPU and screens were shipped UPS ground (tracking number) on Friday. I'm back at work after a month off ....... so it took some time to catch up at my office and then get the stuff off to you. To repeat myself ........ the problem appears to me to be an insensitive CPU ........ sometimes it sees the bullet .......... sometimes it doesn't ........... and it doesn't see anything faster than 3000 fps ........ that is why I was telling you my 7MM was showing 150 when it should be showing 3150 ...... my shooting conditions were virtually laboratory ......... which further concerns me ....... what am I to expect with this equipment outdoors ........ with clouds passing by and the sun at various angles? Please remember ........ I will not accept a refurbished/repaired unit in return .......... a fresh new and working unit is required ........ lemons frequently remain lemons and I just don't have the time to fix some manufacturer's problems .........

It still thought I might be able to convince him the product was worth keeping, but admit I was quickly loosing patience. His chronograph arrived and I checked it out then reported exactly what I discovered. I mentioned a witness by name because he is well known and I believe who originally referred him to RSI. It was already obvious where this was going.

Your chronograph and IR arrived yesterday. The CPU and sensors seemed fine when I did the flashlight test. If anything, the sensors seemed more sensitive then usual and it picked up every wrist flick. I then shot a .17 pellet gun over them outside with conventional skyscreens. It read every shot and properly displayed 1450 to 1500 fps.

I then set things up in the shop with the IR tops on near a door as you described. When I plugged in power to one top, it showed green for a second, then quickly went out. I switched legs and the problem was on the other top. Obviously a bad jack in one IR leg. I replaced the leg with a new one and both showed bright green. I then shot over the chronograph under florescent lights, pitch dark and at a doorway and it read every shot. (Something no chronograph with conventional skyscreens will do).

John (X) happened to stop by and while I was on the phone he shot through it as well and commented "works fine". I can only conclude power was not reaching one IR top and you did not notice it was "flickering" out. This is certainly possible if the connection was intermittent and normal muzzle blast broke the connection. When they were covered by bags you certainly would not have noticed the green light was out.

Did you try it outside on a clear day with the conventional skyscreens? That should have worked. I plan to be shooting this weekend and will put some fast center fire rounds over it with and without the IR tops to further confirm it is working for rounds faster then 3,000 fps. Chances of that being a problem is slim to none.

If there was a lemon in the works it was just one bad part in the IR option. A green indicator light is about as simple and straight forward as one could design the IR system. More elaborate CPU "self diagnostics" firmware would not have been able to provide any more information. I will email after I confirm the chronograph reads more then 3,000 fps (I will eat my hat if it doesn't) to ask if you want everything returned with the replaced "NEW" IR support leg.

At this point I was becoming seriously concerned he would never have the patience to use any of the items he purchased. It was increasingly obvious he would be a horrible customer to support. He confirmed my suspicions with the following response:

I am trying to appreciate your continuing and ongoing defense of this faulty equipment ........ but it greatly concerns me because I have yet to even consider the use of your RSI lab and "pressure trace" equipment ......... which now greatly worries me as to the expectations of a multitudinous list of instructions to "try this ..... " if there is any kind of a problem with your own offerings ..........Who is John "X"  and why am I to be impressed with his comments?? I now wish to send everything back ........... pressure trace and RSI software "as received" ........ I do not have the time nor the inclination for ongoing defensive banter over exceedingly simple equipment which should be "plug and play" .......... equipment which should work properly right out of the box .............
Please advise.

His email convinced me he did not understand what he bought and nothing I could do would ever satisfy him. I was also becoming convinced he was not honest about his background. There was always the possibility he was just someone that had overextended his credit card account and was looking for debt relief. Everything suggested this was not a good customer and it was better to send him to the competition :-)

Based on your continuing comments I am becoming concerned as well. An engineer certainly should have recognized a green power light was not on. A replacement leg or complete IR unit would have been shipped immediately and we may not be having this correspondence. You reacted negatively when I asked that you check for obvious problems as if I were insulting your intelligence and now seem fixated on the rare environmental issues I suggested you check. With weeks between correspondence it is impossible for me to determine you were wasting time.

At this point I can only conclude you will never appreciate anything we do or the fact this is not like buying consumer electronics at Walmart. Everything we sell is warranted against defects. We replace anything that is defective but do not loan products to people just to see if they have the time, patience or ability to operate sophisticated equipment.

All products are described in detail and even software can be downloaded for evaluation.  No where is a refund guaranteed because a customer changes their mind.

Only because I already said I would issue a refund for the chronograph and no longer have any interest in maintaining you as a customer will I agree to a refund if you return PressureTrace in unused condition.

No one offers refunds for stand alone software that can be copied, so the RSI Shooting Lab is not refundable. You also earned a bundle discount of $40 when you purchased the other two products which will not be credited against their value. I also reserve the right to charge a restocking fee depending on the condition of the returned product.

Return PressureTrace with the gages to:
Recreational Software, Inc.
1343 Navajo Dr.
Cottonwood, AZ 86326

I will issue a refund check as soon as it arrives.

Boy did this set him off! Of course any honest merchant would issue a full refund for returned unopened product. He still has no clue...

As a BSIE MBA and President of three manufacturing companies with 2004 sales of $61,000,000+ ....... I know a great deal about reliable products ........At first I did not object to all your "try this and try that ......" but your condescending right about everything attitude and the final injection of your shill's comments did me in ........... if I treated my customers as you have treated me I wouldn't have any and that is why you will not have me any longer. Financially I need not chisel or cheat anything you our of anything ........ but I will not buy from someone who constantly challenges customer intelligence ....... you may recall I already own chronograph, but you assured me this one was far superior ........ except after purchasing you confess ........ there has been a few problems. I told you when I sent the chronograph back I will be at my vacation farm in January ........ and I will ship everything back at that time ...... and I will expect a full refund.

This response clinched it so I wrote:

Good for you! You have every right to be proud of your degrees and what you have accomplished. It does not change the fact you missed the bright green power light which resulted in your having wasted your own time when a 20 cent part failed. Some frustration on your part is understandable but misdirection of that frustration is certainly not constructive, especially if you want me to violate standard industry refund policies on your behalf! I suggest you read the full transcript of our communications. Any rational person who reads the transcript will arrive at the same conclusion.

Have a happy holiday.

Jim Ristow
President/CEO
Recreational Software, Inc.

It seems the emperor (if he really is one) is never told he has no clothes.

I never missed any green LED and you know it!
Suggest you read the following Extreme Accuracy links about you and your products:
http://scripts.xtremeaccuracy.com/index.cgi?noframes;read=54526
http://scripts.xtremeaccuracy.com/index.cgi?noframes;read=54544
http://scripts.xtremeaccuracy.com/index.cgi?noframes;read=54545
The same old connector story ........ the same old "try this .... " you laid on me.
Documented problems by others ........ exactly like mine ........
And you knew about it ........... all this time ........... that is fraud.
And one guy even shot his CED out of frustration.
Shall I post my experience with you to the site list?

The customer who started the thread he read did have a problem using conventional skyscreens in Oregon, which has notoriously bad weather for chronographs. The customer was provided with an IR Option to resolve the problem and simply never posted a follow up to his thread. Another customer chimed in on the thread to support the product. The one fellow who thought it was funny to add that he shot his had admitted to me he shot it by accident when shooting over it at 100 yards.

Here is email from the fellow who originally started the referenced thread:

"Jim,
I have only had a chance to use the unit 2 times since I received the IR kit. It seems to have turned the unit into a totally different beast. It read every shot I took after I hooked it up using the IR kit. As a matter of fact it didn't miss a shot on either of the trips out when the IR kit was in place. I tried it without the IR kit and it went right back to the same old problem.

I have still have not had a chance to test it with any of my bench guns that shoot over 3200 fps yet. On the above mentioned test it was used to prepare for a couple of big game hunts so I was shooting .308 and .375 caliber bullets across it which are much larger bullets and slower moving. I can say that before the IR kit it wouldn't even pick up a rock thrown over it! I hope to test it very soon with the smaller 17 caliber bullets as I have several new rifles to do barrel break-ins on. If it works on the 17 Mach IV's and on the 20 Vartarg and 20 PPC I would sure think it will read any of my other guns as well.

I reported back to the gentleman that were writing the articles on chronographs that the CED has some great options and looks very promising. I also asked them to include a note that an IR kit maybe needed depending on where or how it is used. I'll keep you posted on the results of the 17 and 20 caliber testing.

Take care and stay on target,
Carl"

There was no point in forwarding this and it had absolutely nothing to do with his problem anyway because he had IR and was using the system indoors. He was absolutely convinced everything we sell is horrible and I was trying to screw him over a 20 cent part that failed.

Here is when there are advantages to being the boss :-)

A reasonable person would be willing to admit reasonable error. An honorable person would not accuse someone of lying. What I reported is exactly what was immediately discovered when your IR unit was powered up. There was even a witness (who wants to buy the unit you returned). Whether the problem was intermittent or not as I eluded to is unknown.You are obviously not an EE or you would know there are environmental issues with all chronographs as indicated in the rest of the posts to the thread. You are convinced you don't want the chronograph and I agreed I would refund your money. Suggesting I am a liar is just one more reason I do not want you as a customer.PLEASE, just return the remaining products so we can settle this quickly. A credit for what you have already returned will show up on your next statement.

Now I am beginning to wonder if he understands English or read anything I had emailed. Isn't a non-functioning jack in an IR top a bad connector? No doubt the emperor wishes he could legally lob off my head :-)

You have your "witness" that it works for you .......I have my witness it would not work for me ........Your condescending allegation I did not check the green LEDs for illumination is so blatantly outrageous it rightly entitles me to question your integrity ....... whatever happened to your bad connector theory? It remains so very curious how everything works for you and your "witness" ....... who you say is now going to jump at the momentus opportunity to buy this very defective unit .......Problems exactly like mine parallel the experiences for others and their witnesses .........Like the following quote from the individual and his 30 witnesses at the public rifle range:" The CED dealer sent out another set of back up sensors to try and they preformed the same way. I could get an occasional reading which did match speeds fairly close to the Oehler unit and the Pact unit that we had set up in front and behind the unit. (both of those units read the same bullets with no problem.) I had the whole firing line stopped and working on the unit a couple of times. Man talk about bad advertisement for CED when you have 30 bench shooters trying to get your unit to work." Yes, you are correct ........ it is time to move on ......... and right after the first of the year when I get back to my farm ....... the rest of the purchase will be coming back including the as received unopened and sealed software and pressure trace ....... And I will expect a complete and full credit card refund ........ that is is you want to move on.

Wait, it gets better! I then proceeded to issue a credit only to discover I could not because so much time had gone by since he bothered to try the chronograph the processing service had deleted his CC information. I just wanted to end it and send the guy on his way.

There is no point to further communication. In the future all your email will be filtered to the trash.

The transaction is so old I cannot issue an electronic refund. I will mail a check to you tomorrow in the amount of $285.35 for the chronograph merchandise you returned because I said I would. If the remaining parts of the order are unopened as you say, I will issue a full refund for that as well. If the products yet to be returned show use, I will make a fair adjustment.

I am refunding your money despite your insufferable attitude. I do not believe most of what you have sent in your emails. For all I know you are some bubba with over extended credit card debt looking for relief. You certainly are not an engineer who understands electronics.

Even a check was not good enough and of course he knows everything.

The 10/25/04 transaction is in the system at Master Card ........... it was paid in full on 12/14 .......... you are trying to mislead me, your customer, by saying the "transaction is so old" that you must issue a check for a refund .......... a check I will not accept ......... credit card credits can be issued many months later and I know that you know that very well ........ please go the refund route .......... I will file a complaint with MC if I do not get a full refund credited to my MC account and then you will have created credit problems for yourself with MC ......... You have had the chronograph in your possession since 12/16 and your email to me stated the item had a defective LED ......... at your request I had to pay the shipping to return the unit to you for your inspection ........... so issue the full credit card credit and lets move on for your benefit.

For him to protest a charge he must return the merchandise. Since he placed the order using secure services I do not have his CC information. To issue a partial refund I had to call the processing company and have them do it. This guy was trouble from the get go. And, of course nothing arrived in "unopened condition". It was obvious he had opened everything. Packing material was missing from all of the original product boxes but it was unused.

I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. I could not issue a refund against the transaction for the chronograph but with some over ride tricks was able to issue the credit against your earlier transaction. Within 24 hours the credit should be on your account.

FYI, when you place orders via a truly secure web site the merchant never sees complete credit card numbers. It is not like running a retail card swipe system. Authorize.net and other secure transaction portals do not keep information indefinitely and at some point, normally 60 to 90 days, the merchant no longer has access to the card. I don't know how many more days I will be able to use the remaining transaction for electronic refund. You may still have to take a check for the rest whether you like it or not.

Of course I am sure this means nothing to you and you believe I am the worst crook on the planet. This series of communications is so classic I am seriously considering putting it on my web site for all to see, complete with favorable comments from Carl X, the fellow you believe is a disgruntled customer.

He then challenged me to post everything unedited, so here it is. As might be expected, what he returned was not "unopened" as he claimed.

Did I handle this as well as I could have, definitely not. Do I stand by my decision not to want him as a customer, you bet. Life is too short to get upset over a 20 cent jack that fails at a rate of perhaps 1 in 10,000 or less. If I had kept him as a customer he would have been nothing but grief and would only hurt our business.

Interestingly the fellow who shot over his chronograph in my shop bought it the next day! He was totally impressed that it worked indoors without light once the bad IR support leg was replaced. He will be selling his complete Oehler system on Ebay.

I would not wish this customer on any competitor. We all have similar production problems and if he ever received a product that did not work right out of the box, it would result in a replay of these events. My mistake was believing he understood the product he had purchased and thinking I only needed to suggest checking rare environmental issues. Perhaps explaining things better would have made a difference but it would not have changed his belief there should never be a problem with complex specialized electronic products.

 

This message came from the guy who later bought the chronograph. It made my day.

Mailed to: Customer Support
Subject: Crappy products
Contact: Grumpy Customer
Phone: 928-6499255
Location: A town, Somewhere Bangladesh
Concerning: CED Millennium Chron.
Operating System: Windows 1.0 Software
Version: Huh? Unusual Configurations: AT&T 6300+
Message: Dear mister Ristoe: Why don't everything I buy work perfectly? You should check everything before you ship it and then send a tech along to give me onsite trainging and free 30 day onsite support. I shouldn't have to xert myself to learn stuff. I'm no dummy. I have a PhD in Ancient Sanscrit and I own my own Internet scam company. BTW, I am colorblind which is a bonified disability so you should (under the 'mercans disability act) provide indicators that don't use no stupid colors.
Yours in disgust, Bubba Smith PhD and brewmeister